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 Post subject: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:06 am 
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So, this came up in another forum. The idea of honor and the denigration of that is as old as Christianity itself. G_D not doing things or doing things for the sake of His Name is mentioned repeatedly in the Old Testament. We have an inherent dignity, and when that dignity is brazenly insulted, it has to be answered. My question is, how far can we go in our creations? Are there non lethal methods of dueling that would still bring satisfaction to a wounded Character, or is steel the only cure?


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:22 pm 
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There are lots of options; sports, betting on this or that, or non-lethal combatives. The real issue is making sure the chosen activity shows the depth of the matter for the culture it is based in.

In modern day America two business "barons" might "go to war" over a new market. Battles are fought in recruiting top talent, stealing rade secrets, getting VC funding, denigrating the other, and seizing first to market position.

In a feudal society the "barons" would clash with armed men or champions.

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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:57 am 
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(Moved out of Tricky Subjects, since this conversation doesn't need to be age-restricted. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:08 am 
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I'm going more for Person A calls Person B a liar, Person B demands an apology, Person A refuses. Now what? or Person A issues a non apology.


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Rockwell32 wrote:
I'm going more for Person A calls Person B a liar, Person B demands an apology, Person A refuses. Now what? or Person A issues a non apology.

Person B sues Person A for slander. Person A receives papers ordering him to appear in court and either PROVE Person B is a liar, or pay damages for making false accusations harmful to the reputation of Person B.

Person A is publicly shown to be a false accuser.
Person B is publicly vindicated.
One celebrity sued for libel (printed 'slander') and donated the 'damages' to a victim's advocacy group ... for her, it was never about the money.


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Rockwell32 wrote:
I'm going more for Person A calls Person B a liar, Person B demands an apology, Person A refuses. Now what? or Person A issues a non apology.

This is really as much a cultural thing as anything else.

PISTOLS: Many pistol duels were conducted at ranges that made death an extremely unlikely event. Honor was satisfied by facing the posibility (however unlikely) of death, and the far more likely outcome of merely wounding. Drawing blood is enough to satify honor (If Person A refuses to retract his accusation).

EDGAR ALLEN POE: Have you ever read "The Cask of Amontillado"? Here is the opening paragraph. I will not spoil the ending.
Quote:
The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but
when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge. You, who so well know
the nature of my soul, will not suppose, however, that I gave utterance
to a threat. _At length_ I would be avenged; this was a point definitely
settled--but the very definitiveness with which it was resolved,
precluded the idea of risk. I must not only punish, but punish with
impunity. A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its
redresser. It is equally unredressed when the avenger fails to make
himself felt as such to him who has done the wrong.


DICKENS: Presents a clerk who plots to financially ruin his employer and gain everything that he owns, leaving Person A penniless and Person B in possesion of everything that Person A valued.

PRETTY WOMAN: Something similar to Dickens is referenced in the movie "Pretty Woman" where the businessman took vengence on his Father by buying the the father's 'legacy' company that he loved more than his family in order to dismantle it and sell off all of the assets ... proving in the end that he was stronger than his father.

LIVE TO DANCE ON THEIR GRAVE: There are situations where Person A is simply too strong to attack head on. It is possible to claim a form of victory by surviving to outlive all of your enemies. This can also take a more proactive role, for example Person B could offer information to competitors of Person A that would harm Person A without directly benefiting Person B.

A PUNCH IN THE NOSE: Sometimes the solution is both simple and direct. If Person A is provolking Person B, then Person B may simply punch him in the nose for calling him a liar. Fist fights are seldom lethal.


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:10 am 
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atpollard wrote:
PISTOLS: Many pistol duels were conducted at ranges that made death an extremely unlikely event. Honor was satisfied by facing the posibility (however unlikely) of death, and the far more likely outcome of merely wounding. Drawing blood is enough to satify honor (If Person A refuses to retract his accusation).

This isn't restricted to pistols; duels with swords could be to first blood. On the other hand, in those days the chance of dying from a "first blood" wound was something that anyone engaging in one stood at definite risk of.

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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:17 am 
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So, I found a possibility. It's called mensur; German academic fencing. It fits most of the criteria, you would basically smack them with a sharpened car antenna in the face. It wouldn't have enough mass to punch through the skull, but more than enough to take off something important, maybe even a finger. Even at it's heyday, noone was killed. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:38 am 
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I was reading a story recently which had a developed a culture of settling everything by 'combat'. Combat was extended to mean any kind of competition, actual fighting, art, dance offs, and even reading competitions.

Then again, this was a slightly unusual new culture that started from a joke and has a general feeling of friendship, family, and lightheartedness throughout it. I don't know how well it would work when dealing with deep insults and hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Lady Brie D. wrote:
I was reading a story recently which had a developed a culture of settling everything by 'combat'. Combat was extended to mean any kind of competition, actual fighting, art, dance offs, and even reading competitions.

While I haven't used it in a story yet, I've put a similar element into the world I'm developing, where under certain circumstances someone who has been charged with something or sued can resort to "trial by contest," like a medieval "trial by combat" but encompassing athletic competitions and formal debate. :)

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My blog includes the following "departments":
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  • Strategic Primer, a strategy game I'm developing, played by email, assisted by programs I'm developing. The current campaign (moving slowly, less than one turn a month) always needs more players.
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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:52 pm 
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You may find First-Century Mediterranean culture to be a good example for research. The Mediterranean culture pivoted entirely on the concepts of "honor and shame," and a lot of their social rules were based on saving public face and winning challenges to honor. This has a major effect on how we read and interpret the Bible, since a lot of Jesus' interactions with the religious leaders were actually honor-and-shame debates, so you can actually find out a lot of info on it through Bible culture research materials.

For example, any question was viewed as a challenge to honor--hence why the religious leaders often approached Jesus with questions. However, people's relationship to each other had a big factor. The Mediterranean culture also survived on the concept of "insiders and outsiders," and the rules were entirely different if someone from outside your group (for a Jewish man, that would have been a foreigner or a woman) interacted with you, versus one of your peers.

It created a civilly vicious but fascinating culture, since every interaction in public could have huge ramifications. And it was almost always entirely non-lethal and non-violent, so it might prove useful research for your story. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Lt. General Hansen wrote:
It created a civilly vicious but fascinating culture, since every interaction in public could have huge ramifications. And it was almost always entirely non-lethal and non-violent, so it might prove useful research for your story. :)

Until you get to "The Cask of Amontillado". :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:35 am 
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Ms. Hansen,

That's what I'm going for. I couldn't quote for some reason, but yes yes yes. Do you have a citation for the "questions as questioning integrity?" idea?


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:11 am 
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This is the textbook we used for that particular class: https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Biblica ... 565633555/ But you can also find similar articles online.

Attached is one of the papers I wrote based on material from the class... :D


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New Testament Survey midterm - Rachel Greene - 4-13-17.pdf [127.94 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:53 am 
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Thank you. edit: and your paper is VERY interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Honor and satisfaction
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Rockwell32 wrote:
Thank you. edit: and your paper is VERY interesting.


You're welcome! (And thank you. ^_^ )

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